Curse

Tijger · Sep 22, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

i usually carry a flat and short bow. use the flat bow until the target gets closer then switch to short bow.

Try taking 3. Composite, Eternal, Ivory & Horn bows also have 0.5 seconds flight times and longer range then a Short Bow.

As far as interrupts go, its most definitely not easy and not fool proof.

Phades · Sep 22, 2005, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shinsei

The fact that you can base an entire extremely high dps build on only offensive rangers spamming interrupt skills rings a slightly unbalanced bell in my head. The interrupts are fine and should stay. What I dislike though, is how people are using interrupts for damage, and I see a very simple fix. Punishing Shot, Savage Shot and Distracting shot should ignore preperation effects (not cancel the preperation!)

Well that is a bow ranger in a nutshell really, the stacking of all buffs to create the omgwtf hit me effect. Warriors can do it too, but really requires another character to augment them to be effective. The argument can even extend into the energy drain realm with debilitating shot as its more of a constant drain with the energy spent in favor of the ranger due to expertise, while dealing reasonable damage every attack. While the mesmer equivilants are not available as often and not all of them deal damage, in addition to the other effects being dependant on the current energy pool effected.

All in all, the direct comparison is dilluted as expertise effects everything and every attack causes damage, while mesmer equivilants can do one of many things if the skill in question is a spell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

I somewhat agree with the OP; a slight adjustment to increase the
recharge times (as the OP suggests) or increase the mana requirement
might be in order. However, I don't think this is anywhere near as
cut-and-dry as Ether Renewal.

Well things revolving around ether renewal need to change as much as elements within it could stand to change as well. Although even some adjustments to it could easily shelve the skill as a copy of a non-eliete skill.

This particular instance with rangers is not really cut and dry either, because several different elements provide tilt towards rangers when comparing to any other interupt method. It might be a less hazy comparison if, for instance, savage shot was long bow only, while distracting shot was short bow only, and so on breaking up the combinations like warriors are forced to. Then again, none of the skills are adrenalin dependant either, so even then the comparison still falls closer to mesmer skills, which are available far less often and not always causing damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Indeed. The other thing is that Mesmer interrupts are in the 10-15 energy
range (rather than 5en). Even with the Mesmer's mana larger mana pool,
it's still 50% of the relative price, and 2-3x shorter recharge. Further,
there isn't a non-elite mesmer equivalent to Tiger's Fury, etc.

You also have to note the inherent synergy provided within the class. Fast casting doesnt do much for the mesmer style interupts, while expertise makes the ranger skills easier to sustain over time, making the refresh times a non-issue for reigning in the skills. Then there is also things like oath shot that can recycle them even faster, which can be un-neccacary, but i did happen to run into a r/me that mixed in some inspiriation counters that seemed to work better than if a mesmer were running those skills due to oath shot.

Although i do wonder about the timing of things like energy gain and drain for rangers as well, considering the way expertise cuts down cost for some skills into the 2e range. Say for instance, a zealous string on a bow causes the energy gain before or after the effect spirit shackles might have on the attack. Just in casual observation of using shackles on some rangers, there were quite a few that didnt seem to care and kept on using skills as normal while the hex was up and getting drained in other ways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

Well, in the last update, it became possible to interrupt those 1s healing
spells: the attack times for Distracting and Punishing shots went
down to .5s, and with favorable winds and a .5s flight-time arrow, you're down to 3/4 of a second from click-to-interrupt. I think Word of Healing
and Healing Touch (.75s) are still more about guess-work and timing;
however, Orson, Breeze, Dwayana's, and Vigorous are now game.

It must be my imagination, but it almost seems like rangers are able to interupt their current attack animation sequence with their attacks almost seemingly bpyassing any pause between shots, which almost create instances with multiple arrows in flight to the same target at the same time. I say it must be my imagination, because something else like TF has to be going on in order to allow the bow attack time to refresh fast enough to let that situation persist on every attack. Although, i am not sure, since i havent really played around with every bow combination with the different assiting bow prep skills and spirits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keure

I definitely think something needs to be looked at here with using ranger interrupts to grant massive spike DPS.

I blame this on Savage Shot becoming godly.

*edit* Maybe one can make ranger interrupts deal less damage if they fail to interrupt something.

More like act like a miss, if they were to follow the mesmer pattern.

*Side note
I do wonder why skills and spells are interupted if the skill is not actually being used. For instance, an interupt hits a character intending to use a skill, but is required to move before the action takes place, yet the interupt stops the skill even though it hasnt been activated yet.

RTSFirebat · Sep 22, 2005, 09:47 AM // 09:47

While I don't likethe idea of these spells being used for damage output, I don't think its fair that once again people are asking for nerfs of Rangers once again.

Yes NR sprit spam was bad and needed to be balanced, but now this? I mean its next to impossible for Rangers to find paries in the HoH these days.

I been able to join IWAY teams by being a rapid fire Interrupt ranger, and now you want to take this away from me as well... great!

That's my point of view as a full time Ranger, I'm tired of standing about in the HoH and not getting invites to parties.

Tactical-Dillusions · Sep 22, 2005, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Leave my ranger alone!

If you think that something is too hard for you to counter, maybe you should improve your own skill as a player instead of complaining when people beat you.

Go to diviners ascent with a caster and go kill a few rockshots. You will know what distracting shot means and you will appreciate that most rangers don't time it so accurately all the time.

Charcoal Ann · Sep 22, 2005, 11:05 AM // 11:05

but but but... why nerf ranger interupts? isn't that what they are supposed to do? why not nerf the damage that eles can do? or the healing of monks? or the disruption of mesmers?

just because people are finally using rangers as they were intended, why nerf them? and they obviously are intended to be used for interrupting, they have all those interrupt skills.

there are more ways than beetles under the sun of countering interrupts. warriors are supposed to deal with that.
throw dirt you say? warriors cunning say i. pure strike say i. seeking blade say i.
or just disrupt them when they try to do it.
for every skill there is a myriad that counter it.

i have never played a ranger for any great length of time. but from teaming with them i get the impression that they are meant to interupt. if they can't do that then they have no use.

why not nerf all the disrupting skills of warriors? they have loads. i can shut down any caster with Bulls charge, hamstring and oh so many others.

Pharalon · Sep 22, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

It must be my imagination, but it almost seems like rangers are able to interupt their current attack animation sequence with their attacks almost seemingly bpyassing any pause between shots, which almost create instances with multiple arrows in flight to the same target at the same time. I say it must be my imagination, because something else like TF has to be going on in order to allow the bow attack time to refresh fast enough to let that situation persist on every attack. Although, i am not sure, since i havent really played around with every bow combination with the different assiting bow prep skills and spirits.

This is the problem interrupt chaining creates. They work like spells, having a cast time (but no associated cooldown), so you can fire them off as fast as you can queue them up. Firing off punishing, savage, distracting in 1.5 seconds (and getting the associated damage buffs with each arrow) puts any other type of bow ranger to shame damage wise, plus you're getting interrupts on each shot.
In the time that you can fire off 3 interrupts, you can fire 1 normal bow attack (if you're using the fastest bow and are using an IAS buff). Add some recharge mods in there, and you can chain certain combos as long as your energy stays up, essentially ignoring the refire rate of your bow. So the question I put to all those people going *omfg don't nerf my rangar plz I <3 him* is why you would take anything but interrupt spam if you want to do damage with a bow ranger? Doesn't there seem to be a major balance problem with the class internally (ie a number of skills that have been made redundant by the new changes).

Now all the damage focussed bow attack skills have been at their current values and been considered close to balanced for a long time now. Recent changes have allowed a combo which produces signifigantly higer damage than the previous benchmark. What can you infer from that?

IxChel · Sep 22, 2005, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

This is the problem interrupt chaining creates. They work like spells, having a cast time (but no associated cooldown), so you can fire them off as fast as you can queue them up.

In the time that you can fire off 3 interrupts, you can fire 1 normal bow attack (if you're using the fastest bow and are using an IAS buff). Add some recharge mods in there, and you can chain certain combos as long as your energy stays up, essentially ignoring the refire rate of your bow.

Are you serious?

Even mesmer interrupts are not even half that good. If you are wanding
someone, for instance, and you click an interrupt -- you finish your wand
attack -- which almost always causes your interrupt to be far from .25s.
So, if you are an interrupt mesmer, you really have to forgo your wand
attack or you undermine your entire build. Are you saying that these
bow attacks don't honor the refire rate of the bow? That's a serious bug;
not a ballance issue or a nerf issue, that's an honest to goodness bug.

When a ranger clicks an interrupt skill, they should finish their current
bow attack; and the next bow attack (with it's normal, modified as it may
be, refire rate) shouldhave that "skill" replace the normal damage that
would be done. If they don't want the "delay", they should stop firing
their bow like a mesmer would stop using their wand. If it works any
other way... it's just ... broken.

Ashley Twig · Sep 22, 2005, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

Firing off punishing, savage, distracting in 1.5 seconds (and getting the associated damage buffs with each arrow) puts any other type of bow ranger to shame damage wise, plus you're getting interrupts on each shot.

How much energy does a ranger have?
Unless you're an E/R you won't have that much.
Fireing Savage, Punishing and Distracting should take 25 energy on my calculator.

So, how many enemies can you take out, before you run out of energy?
What good is a fast recharging spell, if you don't have the energy to fire it as often as required?

And the above example of 3 interrupts on a single target in 1.5 seconds?
Sounds like a waste of resources to me.

Tijger · Sep 22, 2005, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharalon

Now all the damage focussed bow attack skills have been at their current values and been considered close to balanced for a long time now. Recent changes have allowed a combo which produces signifigantly higer damage than the previous benchmark. What can you infer from that?

That you can counter casters with a ranger...as the game is supposed to be, rangers have the options to go for disruption, damage dealing or beastmasters and btw, the pets also have disruption attacks now.

Elementalists have glyphs and other protection spells against attacks such as these, they would have to sacrifice one or two damage dealing slots to take these along, just as the disrupting ranger is forced to give up skills to be a pure disruptor.

I dont see an issue here, first off all timing bow attacks to disrupt casters is not at all easy, second, disruption attacks are not free, energy of 2? sure, if you dont mind putting 16 pts into expertise, what does that leave you for other attributes?

But hey, go ahead, nerf the disruption rangers so we can fill GW with untouchable casters in future and while you're at it, nerf the mesmers too and take away the disruption attacks from the warriors.

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 22, 2005, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashley Twig

How much energy does a ranger have?
Unless you're an E/R you won't have that much.
Fireing Savage, Punishing and Distracting should take 25 energy on my calculator.

So, how many enemies can you take out, before you run out of energy?
What good is a fast recharging spell, if you don't have the energy to fire it as often as required?

And the above example of 3 interrupts on a single target in 1.5 seconds?
Sounds like a waste of resources to me.

expertise 14... all of them...

on topic... this build works well in random arena... but in tomb they will need a large number to do it (my ranger build still > punishing shot on 1vs1

).

I have to admit it is far more effective than any other ranger build out there so far... in terms of saying "this build is unbalance" you should say more that "there aren't any reason left to use ranger unless you use punishing build" (although I would like to argue that... there are like 2 more build out there that can do nearly the same thing if not better)

and anyone know about hornbow and not using hornbow with this build is nuts.

Asplode · Sep 22, 2005, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Ranger interrupts: 75% intuition, 25% luck.

Now that Aegis no longer affects your Hero, ranger interrupts mean that unless you blind/spirit/price/blurredvision the ranger, or guardian spam, one ranger can basically keep a hero from capping indefinitely.

super dooper · Sep 22, 2005, 12:53 PM // 12:53

I think I'd seriously break into tears if the skills got hit big. (a little longer recharge time, preparations not counting.. I could deal with that, but other things, mmm.)

Tijger · Sep 22, 2005, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Ranger interrupts: 75% intuition, 25% luck.

Now that Aegis no longer affects your Hero, ranger interrupts mean that unless you blind/spirit/price/blurredvision the ranger, or guardian spam, one ranger can basically keep a hero from capping indefinitely.

Which affects a tiny part of the game and could much more easily and logically be fixed by adjusting the hero, not the rangers.

Shadowspawn X · Sep 22, 2005, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charcoal Ann

i have never played a ranger for any great length of time. but from teaming with them i get the impression that they are meant to interupt. if they can't do that then they have no use.

You think rangers are only about four interupt skills or they are worthless? Its obvious you don't have a clue about the class. Mis-information like that is killing us rangers.

Why do you people refuse to group with rangers and then spend every amount of your free time trying to bring the class down? Begging for ranger nerfs constantly whats with all the ranger hate in GW? These threads are sickening why dont you eles/warriors/monks get your own game if you hate the existance of rangers so much?

Shinsei · Sep 22, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Amazing. Are you people just scanning this thread for the words "ranger" and "nerf" and posting whenever both occur at once? Note: If you're not currently running this build, and a nerf happens to reduce the efficiency of this build, your little pve pet ranger build is not going to be worse. None of you so far have stated exactly why skills based on interruption should do more damage than the ranger skills devoted to damage.

The following arguments are irrelevant in this discussion:

"This and this skill or this build counters these rangers!"
- Great! You found a counter! Does this mean that every single person here calling this build overpowerd are ignorant to the fact that this super counter you found exists? No. Most likely, everyone here trying to prove that something's not balanced, are complaining because your so called "counter" is either not effective enough, too costly or useless in any other situation. So you found out how to put empathy and blind on one or 2 of there rangers. Oh no, what will the 5 ranger 3 monk team do now! Certainly, there's no possibility that the monks are.....good? Or maybe even the slight possibility that these rangers spamming interrupts will control each their target, wear them down then spike together for the win? (thus "accidently" interrupting your crazy counter). The "there's a counter to this" argument carries no weight in any balance discussion, and especially not this one.

"It's hard enough for my ranger to find a group!"
- First of all, if you're talking about PvE, get out of this thread. If you're talking about PvP, rangers are usefull in many builds, and they don't have to be spamming high damage interrupts to fit in either....well, until savage shot became stupid atleast. The fact of the matter is, most pugs picking random people in tombs districts are a waste of your time. Find a group of friends or a guild. Make builds together (include atleast 1 ranger), and wollah. You've got a group with a ranger! Are you happy? If this fails, learn to not be a scrub at GW and be able to play other classes.

"This is just the flavor of the month, just like air spike! You're all just too dumb to fight it."
- It's the flavor of the month for a reason Einstein, and that's because it works. Sure, it can be fought against. You can use the terrain etc., but all that does is makes the ranger who wants you step up to your face. Take a minute to use the thing above your neck for a second and imagine, they have 5 rangers running similiar builds. You have 3-4 monks. If these guys want to make sure that your monks aren't casting many things of much use, they will, and in the mean time, they're dealing as sufficient damage as any "normal" build would, if not more.

"I'm tired of everyone calling NERF! NERF! NERF! whenever something's good."
- Listen, there's a fine line between good and crazy good. Punishing/quickshot - savage - distracting just happens to be crazy good, and unfair at that. Sure, there are many morons out there who post how they feel flare is overpowered because they lost an arena game to it while running their awesome necro/ranger pet guy, but when you see a discussion like this where people who actually know what they're talking about are agreeing that this combination is in fact slightly out of balance, calling it "a typical NERF! NERF! NERF! whine" is just being ignorant. Pay attention. Look at the matter at hand. Things here are not balanced.

I'm reporting anyone who attempts to use any of the above arguments in this thread, for stupidity.

Most of those who do agree that the interrupts are getting out of hand are those who play the game testing these things, and running abusive stuff like this all day long, including myself. We're not "whining" or "complaining" that things are unbalanced because we're losing to it. We're saying it's slightly unbalanced because we want a level battlefield where the fights are actually interesting. Right now, if I'm going to put a ranger into a team build, I see no reason why it should'nt be an interrupt ranger, even if I'm looking for damage. That shouldn't be the case. Penetrating shot etc. should have their uses too.

Edit: "Moron" removed.

FrogDevourer · Sep 22, 2005, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Cleaned up sterile rant posts.

I think shinsei gave a blunt but good overview of why they didn't bring anything to the thread. We encourage constructive discussion, so you are much welcome to disagree. Just don't forget to use a *real* argument with solid backup, not the just the same old generic statements we can find in 2344 threads. Thanks.

@Shinsei: you are strongly invited to edit your post and to remove flame baits. Calling someone a moron isn't necessarily the best way of getting your point across.

DMPecker · Sep 22, 2005, 03:44 PM // 15:44

"SHIELDS UP" For the win, good game rangers...

User Name · Sep 22, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

None of you so far have stated exactly why skills based on interruption should do more damage than the ranger skills devoted to damage.

that's a very good point...the rest of what you said was fluff to fill out a long post.

FrogDevourer: funny how you would have taken the initiative to edit the post of anyone else using flamebait...not saying anything other than it's funny.

FrogDevourer · Sep 22, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by User Name

FrogDevourer: funny how you would have taken the initiative to edit the post of anyone else using flamebait...not saying anything other than it's funny.

I rarely take the time to edit someone else's post. I usuall hit the delete button. This thread can be interesting provided that both sides bring interesting material to the discussion. Shinsei is famous for his aggresive tone, but his last post do contain enough arguments to deserve a second chance. If you have a problem with that, use a PM. Thanks.

Sigil · Sep 22, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

edit again - sry, not helpful. Meh.